Sean Anderson changed his entire life over the pandemic as he tracked the seismic changes to LinkedIn, most specifically within the Recruitment sector. His lessons on how to break through the noise and make an impact on your business goals through this powerful platform are based in hard-won experience.
He shares crucial insights into why your company ads on LinkedIn aren’t seeing results, what the limitations of your Marketing are and how to empower your own people on their own platforms to see exponential growth and rewards from this social network.
I’m Sean Anderson, the founder and CEO of Hoxo Media. We are an agency that brands, Recruitment organizations and their people better. So we either manage or coach them to brand their organizations and their individuals in a way that elevates them in online, particularly on LinkedIn, that raises their awareness and helps them stand out in such competitive marketplaces.
How do you describe what you do with Hoxo Media?
As an organization we have three products:
- Branding: we help rebrand or Recruitment organizations.
That’s everything from their like story, their mission, their tone of voice, and then the application of that on their website and online and on LinkedIn.
- Personal branding: manage or coach clients on their personal brand.
We’ve got like 50 Recruitment owners around the world that we are the ghost writers for their profile.
- Academy programme: teaching Recruiters how to impact LinkedIn better.
Where I spend most of my time is working within our academy program. So we currently have 4,000 Recruiters globally that we’re working with to teach them at a desk level individually, how they can each impact LinkedIn better.
The academy is my passion project. It’s actually come from my own experience.
I designed the program myself based on the fact that I built Hoxo so exclusively from my personal brand.
I was a schoolteacher who went into Recruitment who then became a Marketing Owner. So now I teach Recruiters Marketing, which is quite cool. So, I’m using all the skills that I’ve developed in my working career. Plus creating content.
I invest in making content every day. I record a podcast myself where I’m getting over 20,000 plays a month now. It’s called the RAG, which stands for Recruitment Agency Growth on Spotify, apple Podcast, YouTube, and it tells the story of growth of founders within our sector.
It’s a real mix. The one thing I would say is I love every day. I genuinely enjoy it. Like I wake up every morning, even though it can be busy, it can be like, you know, eight o’clock starts till 7:00 PM The, the tasks that I’m doing and the people that I’m interacting with, I just love it.
How has your experience in Recruitment factored into your journey to starting Hoxo Media?
The truth is the majority of Recruitment organizations are led by males. Some, obviously some females, but majority of males, who are between 30 and 50, started in Recruitment probably 10 to 20 years ago, were super successful individually in those early days, and then have grown through development of people.
What they’re finding themselves in is a unique time where technology and social media is evolving so fast that it’s changing the way people can do things.
A lot of these people are so stuck in the way that they did it as being the only way to do it and that it’s so successful going the way they were, that they find it very difficult to want to change.
I started in Recruitment in 2011 in Australia, and at the time LinkedIn had about a hundred million users.
Now LinkedIn has 850 million users and the predictor be a billion in 2024. The way in which LinkedIn is used is worlds apart from when I started in 2011. But imagine you’d started in 2001, before LinkedIn, imagine you were in the days where you used to fax CVS across to organizations like you.
You’ve already seen so much change but in the last three to five years, I’d say LinkedIn and technology has evolved so fast it’s changed more than in the last 50 years. And it can be daunting for people, you know? It can be really daunting.
What you get is this younger generation coming into the sector who are quite socially savvy in their spare time, who don’t really have any experience of phoning people because they don’t phone even their friends anymore.
Everything’s instant messenger and text. And then you got this generation that everything was done on the phone and in person and there’s a clash. No one’s right or wrong. But the truth is that the world is changing and if your talent that’s coming into your business is younger and changing, so is the hiring management and candidate community externally.
So, if you think that forever your Black Book contacts that you phone up and take for lunch every Christmas is the only way you’re going to recruit, then you know you’re missing a trick.
My mantra and vision and mission is to bridge that gap and to educate people and ensure that this new world is understandable.
I’m 36, I’m not 22, but I kind of live in a world where I’m focused on social and change, but I can still empathize with the older generation and I’ve worked in those environments and, you know, I grew up in a pre-internet, pre-social media world.
So I can see both sides and I think it’s about helping people see it as an opportunity and not as a threat, which is what I’m passionate about.
Why should Recruitment companies bother with content creation?
Traditionally, Recruitment organizations have hired lots and lots of Salespeople. They make up 90% or 99% of their workforce.
Then they might hire someone in Marketing. They expect that one individual to deliver a message for that brand that appeals to every single sector and market that they operate within.
So, let’s just say for instance, you’ve got 10 Recruiters each doing slightly different variations of a market. How does your individual company Marketing person cater for all 10? The truth is they never will. The truth is you are always playing a priority game, so that’s just 10. I’ve got clients that have got well over 150 people. Some have got 5, 500, 700 thousands.
The company should provide the anchor.
It should be the base that says exactly what you do, and it looks and feels exciting, and it represents the brand but ultimately it’s the people on the ground that are front office that are being paid to speak to human beings. They’re being paid to build a LinkedIn network. They’re being paid to do deals. So if they’re the individuals that can collectively impact online channels, then Marketing is everyone’s responsibility.
If you think about it, if every single person in your business spoke about the market that they knew to the people that they’re connected to, then your business can market in every direction it needs to at all times. It’s the most agile it could ever be.
On LinkedIn, one person can blow the platform up faster than a company page can, spending hundreds of thousands of pounds.
It’s about understanding what’s possible. It’s actually about empowering the model that we have today anyway, empowering the fact that majority of our workforce are out there doing the job, not competing Marketing and Sales and going, well, Marketing needs to generate as much leads as Sales, well, no, this should work together. It should be a joint effort.
What trends do you think are important to be aware of in 2023?
I think firstly we have to look at the economic climate, right? So, I think 2021 was bonkers. We saw the biggest hockey stick rise of opportunity in our market, probably ever.
I don’t think I’m wrong in saying that most of my customers would say that they produced record months, month on month. It was just a battle to find candidates because the jobs were coming in at pace, people couldn’t cope with, and that, that rolled into the beginning and probably the middle of 2022.
We’ve seen a softening of the market and a slow down on the job float in the last three to six months. Recession has been spoken about enormously. In my opinion, I don’t think it’s Armageddon. I don’t think we’re going to be in a position where we’re scrapping for the odd job and everyone’s worried about their job security. But I do think it’ll get more difficult.
So, what that’s going to mean is I think organizations in our sector will be reluctant to grow headcount as fast. Some will, if they’ve got a big enough war chest of revenue, but I think the majority will be a bit more calculated with how many Recruiters they bring in and they’ll expect more from the Recruiters they have. I don’t mean necessarily more revenue, but I mean a more well-rounded output because there might not be the jobs coming in, so you’re just finding candidates, right?
So we’re going to need to see those business development skills be sharpened again in 2023. And there’s plenty of ways you can do that.
The classic old school is you just got on the phone and phone as many people as you can. And that still works. You know, you can still phone companies and book meetings and generate vacancies, but there’s a lot of other tools out there. A lot of other ways in which you can effectively drive new business, and also appeal to your existing customer base and Marketing will be at the forefront of that, but also technology.
ZoomInfo, for example, track the keywords that people are searching for and provide those leads to you in a platform. It is something we are looking at ourselves at the moment because, you know, if someone types in personal branding and they’re in the Recruitment industry, then that platform can provide you with that. It’s a data driven lead generation tool.
Another platform called Talent Ticker that we’ve partnered with this year is like the most ridiculous analytics platform that tells you when organizations are going through funding rounds and it can predict the amount or the percentage chance that an organization’s hiring and the types of roles that will hire based on their activity from a capital perspective, which is incredible.
Building your brand through social media sites will continue as a trend as companies like LinkedIn start catering to creators.
Another trend will be more and more people on LinkedIn starting to speak as they understand that this platform is more than just a job sourcing platform or resourcing platform. It’s a true social network that enables you to build your brand.
And then I’m also seeing a lot more people go to TikTok, which is another platform I’m investing more time in now. I think TikTok is one of those that right now I don’t think the kind of search engine or audience demographics are very clear. What I love about LinkedIn is you can connect with people with the right job titles in the right locations, and you can trust that they’re the first degree network that are going to see what you’re doing.
Whereas on TikTok, the followers might be 11 year old children in their bedrooms. Right. You don’t know. But the stats prove that TikTok is increasingly being picked up by the older generation and their search functionality through hashtags is becoming super strong. So, I know some Recruiters that are building 30, 40, 50,000 followers on TikTok and it’s driving applications from candidates and it’s driving mentions from clients and they’re using it to their benefit.
I don’t think it’s anywhere near as powerful as LinkedIn today, but I see it as a trend that will more people will look into next.
I kind of look at it like, if you can build an audience now on TikTok this, even if they are 15, they’re going to be, at some point they’re going to be in the working world.
Building content and an audience can only benefit you. It can’t take away.
It’s just the amount of time. How much time do you put into these things? You’ve ultimately got to focus on what makes you money and what generates revenue or helps you perform in your role.
I’m lucky enough that my job is to invest in these things and look into these things, but for, for every Recruiter out there in 2023, I think if you’re not making yourself known daily online, in your own community, I think you’re missing a trick because it’s really easy.
It’s a really simple task that requires no investment financially, just a little bit of time every day, and. I wish people understood what could come from it because no one would not do it.
What are the changes LinkedIn have made that are so important for businesses and Recruitment agencies to understand?
It was 2017 I believe when LinkedIn was first started to allow native video integration. Before that, users had to put a YouTube link up and it didn’t really work very well. As soon as they allowed for video posts, I noticed more creators came to the platform. People started to use it.
Then, I think it was two years ago, they brought in the follower feature. This meant that like Instagram and TikTok and Twitter, you no longer had to be connected to someone to see their stuff, you could just follow them. That was another big play to turn LinkedIn into more of a social network rather than just a professional networking site. Because why would anyone follow you if you’re not producing content? Unless you’re in business development and you just want to follow them to get on their radar, most people follow brands and individuals they found interesting or whatever.
The follower and the creator mode change that they made a year ago or so was a big one.
And I think that’s made a massive difference to your newsfeed. And then another thing is that LinkedIn’s trying to get more money from corporate businesses through the ad revenue. Facebook published over 112 billion in revenue last year from adverts alone. Whereas LinkedIn, I think published 8 billion. So, they’re nowhere near those other platforms.
So, what they’ve done is they’ve turned corporate platforms into their opportunity to sell ad space, and to do that they literally depress company page content. So, when you go on LinkedIn, go have a look now, the first post on your newsfeed will be a human being, a person. The second post will be a company saying promoted, and then you’ll get maybe two or three more people and another company promoted, and that’s all you’ll see.
So organic content from a company, even if you’ve got a 50,000 followers, barely gets seen, because LinkedIn’s company reps want to phone you and say, Hey, your company page is underperforming. Why don’t you spend some money on our ad platform so we can generate and guarantee you’ll get this X reach in X location.
And again, ads are great. Ads work. There are businesses that run all their sales through adverts, but when it comes to LinkedIn, you can get insane organic reach if you know what you’re doing. And that’s at a personal level. There’s been a lot of change.
I actually also want to address that personal branding is not a phrase people care about and I don’t really care about. No one in our Recruitment sector wakes up and goes, I really want a personal brand. Like, it’s not the sort of thing you think about.
What people want is to be known, to be recognized, to be seen as an expert, as credible, as trustworthy, as useful.
They want to phone someone up who goes, you know, Yeah, I’ll listen to what you’ve got to say. And they want companies and, and candidates to come to them and say, Hey, could you help me out? Cause I need help. That’s what they want. Now to get to that point, a huge factor is your brand, whether that’s your offline brand that you’ve generated through all those meetings and phone calls so that everyone’s like, you know what, whenever, whenever Sean phones me, great. You should deal with him. That guy placed me three times. Yeah, here’s his business card. That was personal branding a few years ago.
Now it’s still all of that, but it’s also how you are perceived online. LinkedIn is the platform that right now gives you that opportunity to be visible quickly. Because the organic ability to grow is, is exponential.
What does a successful personal brand look like on LinkedIn?
Success is determined in I’d say the individual based on where they start and where they want to be.
Like, I don’t want to be like mainstream famous. I’ve got no interest. To me, it’d be about being really well known and recognized in the market that you care about, and you make your money from. So, for me, it’s about Recruitment agencies, everything I talk about, everything I do, all my investment of time and effort, is about helping educate in engaging with the Recruitment agency marketplace.
So, a good personal brand is:
- Making sure that you are constantly growing the following. You need to keep getting more connections and followers, and that’ll come in two ways. The outbound connections you do, and then the people that follow you based on the things you say.
- Then it’s about engaging with your followers. Somebody who’s building that brand should be out there speaking, commenting, liking, because what happens is when you engage with other people, they’re more likely to engage with you. It’s a reciprocal game.
- Third point is building your own content. You have to be authentic with your voice. There’s no use in sharing an article from BBC because you think someone in your market might want to read it. That’s not building a brand. that’s sharing an article that someone might read and driving all the branding to them, like reading it and, and then giving your opinion on it will build your brand.
A good personal brand is about authentically sharing the things you care about and the knowledge that you have, My whole mantra is about being as useful as I can to people. The more I can give away for free, the more people will trust me, the more that they’ll want to work with me.
Finally, a good personal brand is one that converts. So, whether that’s on LinkedIn, your profile needs to be written in a way that is super clear what you do. For loads of Recruiters I find on LinkedIn: from their profiles I know they’re working Recruitment, but it takes me a while to figure out if it’s possible, which market they, they specialize in.
If a candidate or a client comes on your profile and doesn’t know within seconds the exact niche you operate within, then you’re going to lose them. Equally when you go out and try and follow up on leads and generate business, it’s going to help you as well. Because the first thing I’ll going to do is check you. If you are sending out dms and they click on your profile and it’s unclear what you do, then the chances of them replying or wanting to work with you are so low.
So, it’s about building your network, engaging with your network, sharing your knowledge, and making sure that it’s all positioned in a way that is super clear how you help people, and that if anyone wants to find out more, they know how.
Should Recruiters be worried about giving away content for free?
Recruitment and Recruiters head-hunters, they get very confused with being under the radar and confidential and building a brand. They’re like, well, I kind of need to be hidden. I need to be this stealth mode Recruiter that, head hunts at desks and no one, I’m like, I think it’s quite the opposite. You need to be the most well-known guy in the market so that whenever you reach out to someone, whether you phone them at the desk or you send them at dm, they’re like, yeah, I’ll talk to you.
Equally though, when you deal with someone, you need to be 100% confidential. You need to provide an amazing service. Now, the knowledge you have, you could never explain it in one social post anyway, right? You couldn’t give away your whole brain of knowledge in one go. So, I get a lot of Recruiters saying, well, Sean, can we really share this stuff? What if our competitors figure it out or whatever is.
One, your competitors already know this, like you’re not onto some golden bullet of information that other people don’t know. The challenge is how do you explain it in a way that’s authentic and consistent.
So, you’re never going to share your whole knowledge base in one go, but if you just take micro little things that you say regularly and share them consistently, over time, you’re going to consistently help people. You’ll never help them enough that in one post they’re going to never need you.
You’ll just give them little trigger points to lean on and little things to try and little things to think about. After a while, they’ll be like, that person always shares really interesting things, and they’re always making me think differently. And you know what? I think they could help me now because I’ve got, I’ve got this need. They strike me as the sort of person who could help because they talk sense. I already believe, I already trust that they know what they’re doing. I don’t have to, I’m not, I don’t need to be convinced that they’re the person to work with. I just need to work out how and what we need to do.
For those looking to improve their LinkedIn presence in 2023, where should they start?
Well, this is obviously my business, right? So, without giving it all away for free there’s a couple of things I advise everyone to do.
1. Find a slot every day that you can go out there and connect and engage with people.
It might only be 15 minutes but put it in the diary. Make it at the same time every day, Monday to Friday. That way there’s a chance it’ll all happen if you sporadically say, I might do it. It’s like, if you really want to go to the gym, you need to think, when are you going to go to the gym?
This year I’ve been on a mission to run. I set myself a goal of running 300 times and I’m really close to, I’m about 280 runs now. I don’t think I’m going to quite make it. I’m out through like two a day for the next couple of weeks, but I’m almost at the point where I don’t care about hitting the goal anymore because I’ve proven to myself, I can be consistent. And what I’ve had to do is say, well, when do I want to run? At the beginning of the week, I look at the what times and days I’m going to do it. And I commit to it.
And it’s the same with this. Like, you got to think, well, if I’m going to go out and engage with people on LinkedIn, I’ve got to plan it. It’s not just going to happen.
For me, it’s a nine, nine o’clock or 8 45 in the morning thing that I do. At nine 15 I meet my team. So, I go 8 45 to 9, 15, 30 minutes. I’m on LinkedIn, I’m having a coffee, I’m messing about, I’ve got a specific plan I follow, and by the time I meet my team at nine 15 for the morning stand-up, I’ve already ate my frogs, I’ve already done my bit for the day.
2. When you’re going to go out there and produce content, base your content on what you know.
So, I always think, look back rather than forward. So many people are like, what am I going to write about? And they’re looking at like, this infinite goal in the future of potential content ideas. And I’m like, well, forget that.
Let’s focus on what we’re talking about now. Like, what’s going on in your life right now? What advice are you already giving right now? Just easy thing you can do is go through your meetings in your diary. Have a look at the last week, pinpoint a couple of meetings and think, what did we talk about? What advice did I share? What challenges does that person face what? How did I help them come to a better conclusion through that mean, or through that call, and you could tell a story about it. You could take a tiny anecdote from what you say, or you can share the whole thing. But if you base it on what’s real and fact and has happened, then it’ll come across authentic because it’s real.
3. Find time to write and plan your content.
So, two ways you could do this:
- You could bolt it into your daily engagement. So, you could sit there and spend half an hour and 15 minutes is, isn’t liking a comment, and 15 minutes is right in a social post. That’s possible.
- What I prefer to do and advise people is to find a slot in the week where you sit down and you write three posts. Because when you sit down with a focus to, to write three posts, your brain gets into it after you write the first one. You’re a bit better on the second and, and you’re better on the third. The beauty of that is your whole weeks done. In 1 30, 40, 50 minute session, you’ve got three posts for the following week. So, you can just copy and paste them on the day. Takes a split second.
I believe freedom lives in a framework, so people want to feel free.
They want to feel anxiety free. Anxiety is caused by typically having that little niggle in the back of your brain that says, I haven’t done that yet. I need to find a time to do that. But I haven’t done it. I’ve got things now that I’ve just bubbling around the back of my head that I know I need to do, but I haven’t done right. I haven’t ordered a Turkey yet for God’s sake, and we’re 15th of December or whatever it is.
The more you leave in the back of your head and that you don’t actually know when you’re going to do it, the more anxious you get about it and the more chances you are of not doing it.
Whereas when you know, well, I’m already doing that at Thursday at 9:00 AM it’s already in the diary, I know I’m doing it. You, don’t think about it for the rest of the week. You jump in, you do your bit, it’s done. And then for the rest of the next week.
You know, you’re going to paste your posts on the day, and then you’re going to have Thursday at nine o’clock again, the same time to do it again.
Within a month it is just routine, but it’s keeping to those things in the first month. Because if you, if you start to go, well, I’ll forget nine, I’ll do 10, it will get more and more difficult, and you’ll slip.
How does working with Hoxo Media on your personal brand work?
If you’re reading or listening to this and want to be a part of it, here’s what you get access to: a program that firstly gives you the foundational skills to build your brand online, from step by step advice, tips, templates, worksheets to follow, to sort your profile out, to follow a plan, to engage people, to create the content we talked about, and then follow up and turn opportunity online into sales opportunity.
That’s what we teach. That is delivered online live with me or through videos. You can watch yourself at any time. So, you can either turn up on a webinar with me and ask me questions or get to know me, or you can just sit home and watch it whenever you want. I don’t really care as long as you get the output you want.
What we’ll also give you is an account manager that will track your progress and will hold you accountable and want to meet you and find out what’s going on. So, You got the training program that lasts eight weeks or it’s eight sessions, whether you do it in one go or whether it’s over live.
Also on a Wednesday, every week we offer two hours of workshops where we, my team, are waiting for you to come and ask questions about anything to do with LinkedIn. I run two additional sessions every month on brand new things. Last week I talked about how TikTok videos can be implemented really well on LinkedIn. I’m also going to talk about how Descript, the tool you use for this, can impact your content plan. Like all these tools and platforms we use at Hoxo, we’ll run extra sessions. These are above and beyond the kind of flagship learning that people need is for the advanced users.
And then finally once a quarter I run an event, which is all aimed at leadership. So it’s if you’re in a business with multiple people all on LinkedIn trying to do this, it’s really important that you get some leadership built in that there’s certain frameworks and processes that you guys follow as a team on a weekly basis. So every quarter I take leaders and work with them to implement a leadership framework.
So you’ve got the flagship weekly support, you’ve got the daily support in the community, you’ve got the biweekly events that are brand new ideas, and then you’ve got the quarterly event, which is all about leadership and that that’s a 12 month always on cycle that people can either buy individually or collectively as a team.
Is there any career advice you wish you’d heard earlier on?
I wish I’d known about Sales earlier because, it is important in every business, in every product.
It’s literally the lifeblood of every organization that exists, even not-for-profits, need Salespeople to keep things going. And if you think about your career at school and education, every other topic is mentioned. Sales should be a subject that people talk about, and it should be seen as a career path of choice. It should be regarded as a destination career.
I think because what Sales or Recruitment specifically allows people to do is completely impact their own lives through meritocracy. You know, you can work so hard and see those rewards financially. You can grow your career, you can get promoted, you can move abroad.
I don’t know another job like Recruitment, where you could literally earn six figures within a few years, not overnight, but within a few years. You can comfortably earn that, and you can travel the world. You could literally, Fancy working in New York next year and go and get a job, or you could want to move to LA or San Francisco or Australia or Thailand or whatever. Every major city in the world is crying out for great Recruitment talent.
So, I wish someone would’ve picked me up earlier and said, look, Sales is a really, really reputable and successful and rewarding career path. I had to kind of find out the hard way. You know, I became a teacher and I had to hit rock bottom a bit and go abroad and end up in Australia and do all sorts of jobs that I hated before. Someone else said, have you thought about Recruitment? I’d love for people to get it earlier and not see it as falling into the Recruitment industry when every other avenues failed.
Is there a favourite learning moment in your career?
I think there’s two really that stand out. There’s starting Hoxo without any experience in Marketing, I remember buying a course in 2016 that was all around social media Marketing and, and it was all about how to build a social media Marketing agency.
I’m a Recruiter at the time in an agency and I bought this course, it was like a thousand pounds, but I was like fascinated by it not to build a social media agency, but I thought that’ll help me with my Recruitment business in the future and that asset that I bought ended up changing my direction, right? It gave me enough knowledge to think, well, I could do this, and actually I want to do this.
So, firstly, buying educational products and platforms like out of your own money, it’s quite daunting. Spend a thousand pound when you’re an employee of a company on yourself but I just read a book called Rich Dad Poor Dad, which talked about assets and liabilities. And assets are things that put money in your pocket and liabilities take money out your pocket. And I thought, well this, if I get this right, this will put money in my pocket. So that’s why I invested in it.
The second was the pandemic. That time was incredible. And I remember the first few weeks of the pandemic. Everyone I spoke to just said it’s going to make or break you. Now as a, as a, as a business owner, you know, the, the actions you take today will change the course of your life.
And for me it was. There was a number of things I went through at that time. I split it with my ex. I moved out of London, I went back to Manchester. I literally changed my whole life in that 3, 3, 4 month period, and I built a brand new business.
I don’t think it was any one person, but it was like every day with that daily briefing, sitting there feeling helpless made me feel I’ve got to do more. I’ve got to be able to do something to change this. I can’t just sit and wait the pandemic out and hope it gets better.
So, it was like, what can I control? I went daily with my podcast to help people and I realized that the market was shifting to individuals sitting at their own desk, looking at LinkedIn thinking in how do I generate business? And I moved with it.
So it’s about seeing where the market’s going and positioning yourself with it rather than going against it.
What did you want to be when you grew up?
I would say early on footballer, but I quite quickly realized I wasn’t good enough.
So I’ll be honest, I think I went through most of my teenage years not really knowing or caring. just kind of didn’t think too far ahead.
And then it was in my sort of end of school time that I think I knew I wanted to make money. I knew I wanted to, and the first vision was to be to just get a trade and have my own business and drive a white van and just be out and about all day and make my own money. My dad bought a patio cleaning machine, so he used to go around and jet spray people’s patios on the houses. He used to make good money and all he did was buy the machine and go out and in a van. So, I wanted to do that.
Like I honestly didn’t have these big, massive aspirations. I guess I didn’t really know anyone with any money. I wasn’t surrounded by wealthy people. I didn’t have that aspiration of making millions. I just thought, I think I wanted to be in control of my future. And I thought, you know what? I’ll go and I’d be my own boss and drive around all day and make my own money and not have to answer to anyone. So, I think that was always in my brain. But then I got into teaching and, and that was all right for then.
I wouldn’t say I was that guy that was, you know, in the street, entrepreneurial every day. It wasn’t me and I probably didn’t dream that much other than I just enjoyed myself.